We May Be Done, But We’re Not Finished – Author Interview with Deb DeArmond

5 women, arm-in-arm with back to us, looking at the oceanWHEN THE YEARS begin to creep up on you faster than you’d like, you may become apprehensive about the changes taking place. Getting older can seem like a real bummer. But author Deb DeArmand has taken the challenge to offer some encouragement for you, along with a lot of laughs, in her new book, We May Be Done But We’re Not Finished! Making the Rest of Your Life the Best of Your Life. In our interview today, Deb will give you a peek into her book to help you step into the next phase of life with more confidence.

Linda: I love the title of your new book. We May Be Done, But We’re Not Finished. Why did you write it and who is it for?

Deb: As I began to think about the changes I’d been experiencing in my life, I knew there had to be other women who felt on occasion as I did – that they’d landed on Mars. I also knew God had big things in store for us at this time in our life. We’re old enough to have learned some lessons, and young enough to reap the benefits of those lessons – and share them with others. I wrote this book with an awesome team – 20 authors – all 50+ years in age, each of whom write their own chapter about their experiences.

Linda: I have a feeling there’s an interesting story behind the title, We May Be Done, But We’re Not Finished. Can you tell us about that?

Deb:    As the years go by, there comes a time for all of us when we realize a shift has occurred in how we are seen. Others begin to address us more formally and with greater deference. It’s no longer Miss, it’s Mam. And that’s the tip of the iceberg.

  • At first, it’s a nice surprise – right up until you consider the pattern. You realize you now are seen as old—or older, and the surprise becomes a pie in the face.
  • We begin to experience offers of assistance we have not requested. “Would you like me to carry your groceries out for you, Mam?” or when the kid at the restaurant points out the Silver Menu for Seniors. “You’re a bit late tonight for the discount dear, but I wanted to make sure you are aware of it.” I’m aware I’d like to tackle you right now, is what I’d like to say, but a simple, nod and “thank you” will keep me from being arrested.

Linda: How do you think it impacts us when we begin to see a shift in how people see us? Is it really a problem?

Deb: When I began to compare notes with friends of the same age, we were all experiencing it. It can definitely change how we see ourselvesPhoto of Deb DeArmand if we allow it to do so. It may cause us to lose self-confidence and begin second-guessing ourselves. It can also impact our opportunities as well.

  • My job-seeking sister-in-law relocated when she was in her late 50’s. She had a great resume and was highly qualified in her field. One hiring manager, during an interview however, shared that “For what I’d have to pay you for your experience, I can get two college grads right out of school. And they’re far more likely to be here longer than you. You’ll be retiring in, what? About six years?” She didn’t get the job – and by the time she got to her car, she knew she didn’t want to work for that guy! But her age was center stage in his mind.
  • Marriages are often impacted as well. We’ve spent many years raising families, driving carpools, and focused on our children. Nothing wrong with that. But it can come at a cost.

Linda: How does the book deal with the challenges affecting marriage as we grow older? Does the book have some chapters specifically about this subject?

Deb: Yes. We’ve been busy parenting for so many years the relationship as husband and wife is often back-burnered. We may experience surprise challenges we never saw coming as we move into life with “just the two of us.”

One chapter by Michelle Rayburn chronicles the truth behind the traditional vow, “till death do us part.” With tongue (only partially) in cheek, she shares the everyday shift of growing together, not just growing old. Here’s an excerpt from her chapter: “For Better or For Hearse”:

“Some couples cruise into retirement with the spouse of their youth, and others find themselves navigating an unfamiliar road with a second marriage. Some won’t remarry but will treasure the memories from the past. The thing we all share is the uncertainty of time that becomes more real as we age.

“Sometimes I look across the room and wonder if I can handle thirty or forty more years of Phil’s snoring in the recliner with the remote in hand. He probably wonders if he can handle more decades of my phobia about chewing noises—that will probably get worse if he ever needs dentures! If we live as long as his grandparents did, we aren’t even halfway there. Oy.”

Michelle Rayburn’s chapter, as does every chapter in We May Be Done, But We’re Not Finished, offers tips, tools, and solutions to address the challenges or leverage the gifts that come with age.

Linda: What are some of the other issues addressed by the authors of the book?

Deb: Deb Coty has a great chapter in the book titled, “Pressed but Not Squashed.” She’s part of the sandwich generation – helping an adult child, now a single mom– while providing eldercare for her 92-year-old mother. Her encouragement? “We are pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair.” 2 Corinthians 4:8 (NLT).

Some of the stories help readers tackle issues that come with age: health issues, adult children, providing eldercare for our parents, or staying active after retirement.

Other chapters tell about new opportunities to serve and get involved with ministry, travel, hobbies, and new or second careers. Pursuit of a “someday” dream. One of our contributors, Phylis Mantelli, after a lifetime of longing, took up dance class in her fifties! Amazing!

Linda: Is there a theme that runs through the book? What do you want readers to take away from your book, We May Be Done, But We’re Not Finished?         

Deb: Along with my talented author friends we chronicle our real-life experiences—the ups and the downs—and explore the exciting opportunities we’ve discovered.We prefer to consider the opportunities of elder wisdom versus mourning the loss of our youth.

Our banner scripture is: “Finish what you started in me, God. Your love is eternal – don’t quit on me now! Ps. 138:8 (MSG).

When experienced women invite God to redirect their focus to his purpose and calling, his faithfulness carries us to places we’d never imagined. This can be an exciting time. We want readers to prepare to see new possibilities for their own lives through the stories here of women transitioning to the north side of fifty including their challenges, adventures, and laugh-out-loud-moments.

Linda: Where can readers find out more about this book along with your others?

Deb: You can find more about me and my books at debdearmond.com and on Facebook . This book, along with my previous four can be found on Amazon under the title: We May Be Done, But We’re Not Finished. 

 

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Creating Safety through Listening

Photo by Etienne Boulang

I OFTEN TALK ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE of creating safety in a relationship to help a marriage thrive or survive a marital collapse. In my book, Fighting for Your Marriage while Separated, it’s a common theme that runs throughout the pages. But what that means is not always easy to understand. For how do you create safety?  It’s not just about refraining from a fight or not attacking the other person. In fact, creating safety can even involve something as simple as how we listen to each other.

How do we react when our partner tells us about a problem? Are we supporting them or trying to fix them? Are we allowing them to express their feelings or are we unintentionally shutting them down by negating emotions that seem illogical to us? Do we interrupt them and interject our own spins on things or do we allow them to finish their story?

Both partners need to feel safe if they are to be happy in the relationship, and we can consciously promote safety in a variety of ways. Learning how to listen when our partner expresses their needs without interjecting ourselves into their narrative is one of the ways we can help them feel safe.

Deborah Maxey, PhD, wrote a great article in MTL magazine called “Can You Hear Me Now” about how to listen to someone when they are in need and expressing deep feelings or hurts.  She specifically lists the ways we often fall short in our listening skills and unintentionally push the person away instead of using the time to help them feel safe and understood. She lists 15 mistakes we often make in our listening. I highly recommend that you read the full article below and see if you can create more safety in your marriage by improving your listening skills.

Can You Hear Me Now?

by Deborah Maxey, Ph.D.

There truly is “more to life” when we have healthy, loving relationships. In my practice as a psychotherapist, assessing the health or issues in relationships was a huge part of my job. Extensive training allowed me to dive deep into what makes a relationship work and what creates distance. As an expert witness, I testified in court over a thousand times on those assessments.

Without question, the biggest characteristic of health or disorder in our relationships is how well we comfort one another. In a time of need, does our partner, friend or child find a safe, cushy place to land where he can share his tender needs with us?

There are key ingredients to being that safe, soft place to land when someone is hurting. The most important thing we can do to build trust as a safe person to share with is to practice getting ourselves out of the way when we listen. Most people are well meaning and think they are good listeners. But even the most compassionate people can make big errors.

To offer quality comfort, we must be open to hearing our loved one’s physical, emotional and spiritual needs without our own feelings and needs interrupting. Here are fifteen ways listening can go wrong and create distance in a relationship.

Continue reading  https://mtlmagazine.com/article/can-you-hear-me-now/

 

You can learn other ways to create safety in a relationship in my book, Fighting for Your Marriage while Separated.

 

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Interview with Tara Royer Steele, Author of Eat. Pie. Love.

Words - Eat, Pie, LoveAS SUMMER ROLLS IN and the lockdowns from Covid begin to roll out, most of us are ready to take a deep refreshing breath, sit back, and experience some of life’s sweetness. Author Tara Royer Steele has just the recipe for us. As owner of her own nationally acclaimed bakery, Royers Pie Haven, she suggests  “1 dash of love + 1 heaping scoop of grace = life sweeter than pie.”

In her new devotional book, Eat. Pie. Love., Tara shares some of her delicious pie recipes and artwork while using the analogy of pie baking to remind us that our lives can become messy or unsavory, depending on the ingredients or choices we make. But when we trust the hands of our Creator, we can experience wholeness and the sweeter side to life. I’m pleased to give you a look into what her book has to offer through the following interview with her.

Linda: What gave you the idea to write Eat. Pie. Love.? Tell us why you decided to include recipes and your own artwork?

Tara: I never had the idea in my heart to write a book, but friends who were authors, others who walked alongside me through the hard times, and customers who saw how I had overcome hard things continually told me I should.  The idea of a devotional grew from little snippets I posted on social media.  In the mornings, during my quiet time, God would give me digital downloads from the music I was listening to, or what I had been reading. I would then turn that into a, “doodle” or illustration, and then write what God had laid on my heart.  Of course, being in the restaurant and pie business everyone wanted recipes!  It had been over 20 years since our family had put out a book.

Linda: Tell us how you see our lives as a parallel to pie baking and Jesus as the baker?

Tara: When we bake a pie, we combine the right ingredients to pour into the pie crust. We can’t just put flour into the crust, that wouldn’t taste great.  We must add the eggs, chocolate, sugar, butter, and vanilla too. When we pull it out of the fire it comes out smelling delightful, and looks beautiful. When we let God be our foundation, and Jesus fills us with the right ingredients, and through the refining, our lives can become beautiful masterpieces.

Linda: In your book, Eat. Pie. Love., you clarify the difference between a peacekeeper and peacemaker?  How does this apply to marriage and family?

Tara: I thought for the longest that keeping the peace was the way to be. I was wrong. I would try to keep peace between my brothers, or my parents, or my husband.  I would smooth things over, and try to make everyone happy, and that only lasted for a while. Soon, the struggle was back, and usually even larger. I could no longer keep putting a bandaid on things. My husband said that we can’t keep going like this, I can’t be in the middle of you and your family business.  You’re going to have to stand up and do hard things and set boundaries.  We have to work on the issues at hand, and like grown adults, come together and make peace.

The only way to run a successful family business is with open communication and a willingness to listen, lay down your selfish desires, and follow God’s lead for peace. I was weary, and once I decided that my family, our business, and my marriage were all what God had intended for my life, I was able to meet everyone where they were and come to the table with The Holy Spirit leading my words.

Linda: You are open about some of the messiness of your life including divorcing an abusive first husband and a short time of partying. What helped you realize you needed to make changes in yourself?

Tara: I knew that I needed to make a change, but I didn’t make the decision. God continually chased me. (I grew up in a Christian home) He pursued me, even when I wasn’t looking at Him. He never gave up on me. God grabbed me, and Jesus interrupted my life. I was dating several guys, having a good ‘ole time, not worrying about anything, even our family business. I really had come to my wits end. DONE. Wanted to just do me for awhile, this was back when online dating was just beginning, and I was on match.com. I sent a message to my future husband, Rick, and he responded the next morning. We chatted through instant messenger for a few weeks, and decided to meet.

The moment I saw him I knew he was the one. I had been searching, and searching for someone to love me, see me, and He did. Jesus reminded me that I have always loved you, and never left you. I mean, you can say the rest is history, we have been married for 15 years, and it feels like yesterday. It’s been the sweetest gift.

Linda:  What has your beautiful second marriage and motherhood taught you about God?

Tara:  My marriage to Rick has taught me that I am so loved, just as I am. In my brokenness. Rick has loved me through all the baggage. He never gave up on me. God is the same. There is nothing that I could do to escape His love. Surrendering my life to Him is the best choice I’ve ever made. God is the giver of all good. My two boys, Brayden (12), and Bentley (!0), are the sweetest treasure. They walk into a room, and all Berry piethe cares of the world are melted away.  hat is how much God loves me. He is so generous, patient, and forgiving.

Linda: One of my favorite scriptures is, “Be still and know that I am God,” (Psalm 46:10). What is the value in being still? How can we learn to trust the process of being still?

Tara: I am a doer, gooooo, goooo, goooo.  I always thought that the more I did, the more successful I’d be. A big ‘ole NO!! I picked up so many good things, but they weren’t HIS good. I didn’t realize this until so much later—actually it was through the writing process. Sitting with Him gave me the tools I needed to tackle the day.  nd, honestly, learning to just show up in love is what I learned was the best tool. I was always a planner and list maker. Yes, there are things that have to be done, but He’s already made a way.  I just need to show up and follow His lead and do the next right thing.

Linda: In what ways do we pour ingredients into our lives? What are some of the positive ingredients we should strive for?

Tara: We pour social media, to do lists, shopping, work, addictions,  striving for success into our lives, just to name a few. These things can be good for a bit. They soothe and comfort for a moment, but they don’t make things better. Pursuing quiet time with God through rest, praying, gardening, art, baking, or pursuing whatever gift He’s placed in your life and community are things we should pour into our lives.  These draw us closer to Him because we see Him in the details.

Linda: Where can we find out more about you, your book, and your delicious pies?

Tara: You can find more about me at tararoyersteele.com or social media @tararoyersteele or @royerspiehaven or @allthingsacres @royersroundtopcafe

woman in kitchen baking

 

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The Single Dad Detour – Author Interview with Tez Brooks

cover of book "The Single Dad Detour"IF YOU’RE A DAD in a broken marriage and marital reconciliation looks more and more remote, my interview with my friend Tez Brooks will be especially meaningful and, perhaps, a life-changer. In his award-winning book, The Single Dad Detour, Tez Brooks provides wise guidance laced with humor to help divorced and separated dads navigate through difficult circumstances in parenting. I’m hoping Tez’s experience and insights will offer answers to many of the questions men commonly ask in their emails to me. A review of the book by author Rick James says, “If I were a single parent on this journey, I’d want Tez’s comforting voice on my GPS. It’s a warm and understanding voice that’s traveled the back roads and knows where it’s going.” Recently, Tez received the Book of the Decade award from Serious Writer.

Linda: Tez, tell our readers a little about yourself and your journey.

 Tez: Sure. Well, I made a decision to follow Christ when I was 6, felt a call to ministry at 18 and went to Bible College. I was a 22-year-old youth pastor when I married a girl from my hometown. During our 10-year marriage we had two children who are now adults.

But there were a lot of hidden issues we were dealing with as a couple. I had abuse in my background and was a bit of a control freak. I could be a real jerk sometimes. My wife had undiagnosed bi-polar disorder and some other mental health issues that we didn’t know were affecting our marriage. I thought that’s just what marriage was supposed to be—a roller coaster.

On top of that, she was chronically unfaithful and although I saw evidence of this while we were dating, I figured a wedding ring would solve this. I was young and naïve and didn’t have any older men speaking into my life who might have warned me. I took her back several times but eventually, her unfaithfulness led to a divorce.

That’s not what I wanted for us. I continued to make attempts to salvage our marriage. Counseling, marriage conferences, books, prayer, fasting—everything. Even after the divorce I was open to reconciliation. I believed with the Lord we could work through anything. But at the time, only one of us was walking with God. And honestly, you can’t force someone to love you.

We shared custody of our son and daughter. Sometimes they lived with me, other times they were with my ex. It was a lonely depressing time for me. The kids experienced a lot of loss too. In all, the kids lived with me full-time for about 3 years. As you’ve heard, no one wins. Divorce is a lose/lose situation.

After being divorced 7 years, I met and married my lovely wife Christine and we’ve had 2 more girls. It’s such a joy to raise children with a godly woman who loves me and shares the same values as a parent.

 Linda: Your book, The Single Dad Detour was a winner for the 2016 Royal Palm Literary Award. Although your book has a Christian worldview, this was a secular competition. Obviously they saw your book contained some unique insight and encouragement for any audience. How is that?

 Tez: Maybe it’s because I didn’t try to get too deep or theological? I’m not sure. I talk a lot about the importance of having a personal relationship with God in order to effectively parent your child through a broken family situation. But if you know me, I just don’t get in people’s faces as a Bible-thumper. Sharing my faith is a more natural, relational thing with me. Perhaps the judges sensed this? I’m just thankful they acknowledged a religious book. I’m chalking it up to God’s grace.

It was certainly an honor to receive such a prestigious award and recently another award from Serious Writer. I’m blown away by how God is using the book to minister to single parents around the world. I currently have 2 single dads I’m mentoring solely because they heard about the book and contacted me.

A counselor I know gives copies to parents who are having marriage trouble. In Singapore, Teen Challenge uses it as a resource for single dads coming through their addiction recovery program to help them learn how to be better fathers. But actually more women buy the book than men. Mothers get it for their divorced sons. Women give copies to their boyfriends who have kids. I’m humbled by every story I hear.

 Linda: You’ve said it was difficult to write it because of the memories that surfaced. What led you to write it to begin with?

Tez: I really struggled. I’d been re-married several years and had moved so far past that season of darkness. I didn’t want to re-visit some memories.

But the Lord started giving me compassion for single dads, and I remembered how there just wasn’t anything out there for me when I was going through it. Especially books with a Christian worldview. What was available was too preachy for me. So I wrote something that would encourage guys with a little humor and offer some practical advice and action points.

 Linda: Many men build their lives on the idea that a wife, kids and a house equals success. When that crumbles down, where can they find their identity?

 Tez: That’s a great question because our identity needs to be grounded in Christ to begin with. If that’s not there when tragedy strikes, we’re in trouble. That’s where I found myself. I was a Christian but I didn’t really understand my identity as a child of God. I thought the American dream was where my self worth was. When that disappeared I was suddenly a man in my 30s with no real value to anyone. At least that’s what I believed.

I embraced the world’s view of who and what I was. In essence I allowed the world to place a price tag on my forehead. Suddenly that tag was marked down 95% and I was thrown in the bargain bin.

It can take a long time for the message of Christ to get from our heads down to our hearts. That’s what needed to happen with me. Thankfully the Holy Spirit began a work to reveal the value God placed on me. It was vital to my healing.

Linda: You’ve been happily married to Christine for 15 years now. But what about the single dad reading your book who is believing for a marital reconciliation? Do you support that?

Tez: Absolutely. God hates divorce and he desires for us to honor and keep those wedding vows of “…till death do us part.” I commend and respect couples like you and Marv who are able to work through some very heart-wrenching issues and preserve a marriage after long periods of painful separation. Some of these couples even re-marry one another…so even a divorce is not necessarily final. That’s what I want readers to hear.

In chapter 3 of The Single Dad Detour I mention the importance of attempting to restore your marriage. Divorce should always be a last resort. But I also know every couple has different situations. Not all marriages are in trouble because of unfaithfulness or desertion. And even for those marriages that are, the spouse who desires a reconciliation might be the very one who sinned but is now repentant.

Whatever the story, some folks don’t get the luxury of having a spouse who agrees that the marriage must be saved. So you may be all alone in hoping for marital restoration. But God is still there. He was for me.

When it became obvious my marriage was irreconcilable, I was swallowed up by an even darker shadow. Because I thought scripture wouldn’t allow me to marry again. I prepared to spend the rest of my life single.

While I was embracing some very cool opportunities to serve the Lord in ways only a single could, I still struggled as a man in my 30s, knowing loneliness and sexual temptation would always be part of my life.

It took a brave pastor to walk me through some scripture passages and show me I was free to remarry. Even after that, I was suspicious and didn’t trust women in general. I watched Christine for a year before I decided to court her.

It was scary for me but I’ve never dreamed marriage could be so fulfilling. Does this make me pro-divorce/remarriage? No. But life is messy. You don’t always get what you expected or planned for. And watching God redeem your life in spite of bad decisions is an amazing thing to experience.

Linda: What is one thing you want men to get from reading The Single Dad Detour?

Tez: I want readers to walk away encouraged to keep going. Whether God restores your marriage or not, he is coming alongside you in that journey. I want to challenge dads to step up to the plate in their parenting, while still trying to save the marriage if they can.

Outcomes are not always under our control, yet there is still hope for an abundant life if the marriage dissolves permanently. If men can celebrate what they’re doing right, while still leaning desperately on the Savior for hope, it will make the road they’re navigating much easier.

Linda: Where can people learn more about you and your book, The Single Dad Detour?

Tez: They can learn more me and The Single Dad Detour at www.everysingledad.com, on Facebook (everysingledad) or Twitter (tezd63) and they can also find the book on Amazon.

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Marriage on the Mend, Healing Your Marriage after Crisis, Separation or Divorce – Interview with Co-author Penny Bragg

Marriage on the Mend is a must-have book for couples who are trying to restore broken marriagesDO MIRACLES HAPPEN? Can marriages reconcile when it looks almost impossible for it to happen? YES, and the story of Clint and Penny Bragg proves the point.

But how the reconciliation takes place and how the marriage is mended  becomes an important part of this story. Clint and Penny’s book, Marriage on the Mend, Healing Your Marriage after Crisis, Separation or Divorce, is a must-have book for couples who are trying to restore broken marriages. And co-author Penny Bragg is here to tell you more about both their story and their book.

In our Marriage 911 classes, we have often  invited Clint and Penny to share their amazing story of reconciliation, and each time they come, they provide new hope for couples who thought their marriages might be over. However, in addition to their story, Clint and Penny’s book, Marriage on the Mend gives couples the tools to actually put their marriages back together, brick by brick, after they make the decision to reconcile.

Linda: Penny, you have an extraordinary testimony of reconciliation. After your divorce, did you ever think it would be possible to remarry each other?

Penny: Neither of us ever imagined God would reconcile our marriage. We had been divorced for over a decade and had absolutely NO contact with each other during those years. And when we say, “no contact,” we mean it. We had not spoken since the day our divorce papers were notarized citing, “Irreconcilable differences have caused the permanent breakdown of our marriage.” Once that happened, we each went our separate ways.

Early Married Life and How it All Unraveled

Linda: Were you Christians when you were married back in 1989?

Penny: Yes, we were Christians. We were married in the church and had a beautiful ceremony. However, we had no clue how to be married. We thought if we loved God and each other, that was enough. We were not mature enough in our faith to realize that we were going to have to work hard to have a good marriage. We also didn’t want to tell anyone we were struggling because we were in leadership positions in the church.

Linda: Yes, I’m afraid that can easily happen to people in leadership. Tell me though, were there specific issues that led up to your separation and divorce?

Penny: Yes, we can look back at it all now and see it so clearly. We both had a ton of baggage from our childhoods and secrets we never shared with one another. Those things seemed to subtly crawl out from under the carpet and creep in between us. We had gone on a mission trip together after our first year of marriage and when we came back, that’s when the division started. We couldn’t really put our finger on what was wrong. Clint could feel me pulling away, but we didn’t have good communication skills to work through things. He started getting worried because I was spending a lot of time away from our house and away from him. He confronted me about an affair, but I denied it.

Linda: Did you attempt to reconcile after you were separated?

Penny: I was the one who walked out. I wasn’t being honest with Clint. I was being unfaithful to him and to God. Clint tried to do all the right things to reconcile, but I would have NONE of it. The more he pursued me, the more I ran away. When he showed up unexpectedly at my workplace, I threw my wedding ring across the room at him. It was ugly. I was ugly. I closed my Bible and I closed my heart. I understand now that I had never really let Jesus heal all the wounds from my childhood and that I took out all that pain on Clint. He now understands that he was doing the same thing to me.

Reconciliation and Remarriage

Linda: I’ve heard you share your amazing story of how God started the ball of reconciliation rolling. Would you share with our readers what happened?

Penny: Unbeknownst to either of us at the time, God had paralleled our lives during our eleven years apart. But, He never allowed us to intersect. What we didn’t know was that we had both recommitted our lives to Christ after wandering our own paths away from Him. We finally let Him reach down and touch all the wounds in our hearts. I was working with a Christian counselor, trying to heal and bring closure to things in my life that I had broken through sin. The LAST thing on my list was contacting Clint, even though he should have been at the top. I was too scared after all I had done to him. I had NO intention to try and reconcile, just to heal and confess the truth to him. I also wanted to ask his forgiveness and apologize for what I had done.

Linda: The rest of the details of your incredible reconciliation are in your book, Marriage on the Mend, right? Tell me more about your remarriage and your book.

Penny: Yes, Marriage on the Mend—Healing Your Relationship After Crisis, Separation, or Divorce, Authors Clint and Penny Bragg(Kregel, 2015) contains our story. But it also covers the first five years of our remarriage to each other. Once we remarried in 2002, we had a mountain of consequences to overcome. People tend to think that you just reconcile and then cross it off your list. WRONG. Reconciliation is something we work on every day. We’ve now been remarried for almost 13 years. We’ve learned over and over again that reconciliation is not about following a recipe, it’s about following Jesus Christ. God did not allow us to have contact with each other until we had both reconciled our relationships with Him.

Tools for Reconciling

Linda: What great insight! So often, couples want to just repair the marriage itself, but until their hearts are right with God, it’s hard for them to get their hearts right with each other. What would you say are the main tools that have helped you build a strong marriage the second time around?

Penny: There are many tools that have helped us along the way. During our first remarriage conflict, God really got our attention. We didn’t want to fail at our marriage again. We were desperate for Him. We also didn’t have any counselor or books that seemed to meet our needs. But, we had both established a strong relationship with God which included meeting with Him alone daily. That is the most important thing in our remarriage that has made all the difference. In addition, we never leave the house without praying together in the morning first. We also meet together once-a-week to read the Word and pray together. Having prayer/accountability partners is another must in our marriage. Those people have permission to call us on the carpet when needed. They are our marriage advocates. We also get away with God each quarter to really talk about the deeper issues in our marriage, to seek Him together, set goals, and assess our progress. All of these tools have drastically cut down the conflict in our marriage.

Linda: What are some of the hardest issues you think couples must deal with after they reconcile?

Penny: Unforgiveness and bitterness over past mistakes seems to plague most couples who reconcile. The key is learning to accept forgiveness and reconciliation as a PROCESS…an ongoing process that takes time and effort. In addition, couples must learn a way out of the cycle or revolving door that gets them stuck in the same offense or argument over and over again. We have several tools in our book to address these issues.

Linda: Tell me about the QR codes in Marriage on the Mend and why you wanted to integrate video into the reading experience.

Penny: As former educators in the public school system, we know how important it is to model the things that are taught. People need to see tools and concepts in action to understand how to apply them. We were thrilled when our publisher, Kregel, suggested we take all the video podcasts we had made and link them right into the book using QR codes. That way, as you read you can scan the QR code with your Smartphone or tablet and see a visual demonstration of each tool. There are 40 podcasts connected and threaded into Marriage on the Mend. We also posted all those videos on the Internet so people can access them for free, even if they haven’t read the book. They can also be accessed through our website http://www.InverseMinistriesPodcast.org or on our Marriage on the Mend YouTube channel. https://www.youtube.com/user/MarriageontheMend

Advice for the Separated or Divorced

Linda: A number of the people reading this may be separated or divorced. What advice would you give?

Penny: Focus on strengthening your individual relationship with God daily. We designed some free resources to help you do that, including our “Give God 40 Days” devotional. We also have a resource entitled, “Do the Desert Well,” which encourages you with specific ways to allow God to change and heal your heart. Just e-mail us at reconcile@inverseministries.org and we are more than happy to send these to you. We also have a set of 40 scripture/prayer cards to deepen your prayer life. We know how painful the journey is for those who feel like their spouse or ex-spouse is showing NO signs of reconciliation. That’s why we created so many resources to walk alongside those who feel like there is no hope. If God can reconcile our marriage, He can reconcile ANY marriage!

Linda: Where can people find out more about your book, Marriage on the Mend?

Penny: Our website has all the information about this book and others we’ve written about marriage, including what others are saying and an informational video. http://www.InverseMinistries.org.

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More about Unwrapping the New You

Photo by Niclas Gustafsson

A TIME OF WAITING, a time of uncertainty causes us to look for new answers to life.  Part of that is to discover more about who we are and who we want to be.

Some of that self-discovery is inward as we look to God to help us make changes. But some of it might take an outward focus too as we navigate through relationship challenges.

If you are reading my book, Fighting for Your Marriage while Separated, the chapter “Unwrapping the New You” holds some important truths about experiencing the joy of becoming the person God created you to be. In this post, I want to add additional strategies for those of you fighting for your marriage as you go through this period of change. God created us as physical beings, and along with the deeper changes we are making, there are practical ones as well that can contribute to finding victory at the other end of this journey.

Changing Things Up 

We humans seem to be wired to enjoy change every now and then. We go along with things a certain way and then want to spice things up. That can apply to our marriages too, particularly a marriage that has gone stale or veered off course into brokenness or crisis. Doing something new for our marriage relationships can add a little pizzazz, and during a separation it might get a drifting mate’s attention.

So in addition to allowing God to make changes in your character, attitude and actions, you might also consider making some practical changes that stretches who you are. Your purpose is to become the fullest, most vibrant version of who God created you to be. Don’t make the mistake of trying to become who your spouse wants you to be. That’s not you. You want to become the person God wants you to be. You are a unique person, created by God to be His special child. Fulfilling His most complete vision of you is a tribute and honor to Him as well as a gratifying achievement for you. During this time of waiting, while you are exploring God’s heart and purpose for you, it’s your opportunity to spread your wings to mount up like eagles to discover more of God’s purpose in who you are individually as you seek to become the new you.

In doing this, you might want to try taking some fresh new approaches not typical of you, something unexpected. Think outside the box. Expand your interests and try new things. Read some interesting new books or take a course at the university. Consider taking up a new hobby, getting an interesting new job, or venturing out in a bold new direction. The interesting side effect can be that your spouse may take a second look. You might even consider taking a trip to a destination that causes your spouse to sit up and take notice. “You’re going there?  Hmmm, interesting.”

Fighting for your marriage during a separation encompasses every aspect of life on every level. We are fighting Satan who comes to “kill, steal and destroy.” His tactics are numerous, and he takes advantage of every loophole he can find. So as a marriage warrior you need to be vigilant; you need to be wise . . .  and you need to be creative. When Jesus sent his disciples out into the world, He said He was sending them out “as sheep among wolves,” and He instructed them to be “shrewd as snakes and innocent as doves” (Matt: 10:16 NIV).  We take instruction from this as well.

When we are following God and fighting a battle in enemy territory, we too are as “sheep among wolves.”  We need discernment and we need to allow God to lead us creatively as we tiptoe through the minefields of separation.

In her book, The Divorce Remedy Michelle Weiner Davis reminds her readers, “You are competing with your spouse’s fantasy of an ideal life without problems, or perhaps even a real-life affair.” So as a marriage warrior, your goal is to win your spouse’s heart away from Satan’s snares and give him or her a loving and alluring dose of God’s very best.

Practical Upgrades for the New You

When we dig down into some Old Testament stories, we can glean wonderful tidbits of practical wisdom.

In the story of Ruth, Naomi wanted her daughter-in-law to win over her relative Boaz, who had been kind to her, so he would marry her and take care of her. When she gave Ruth some personal advice about making herself attractive, Ruth listened to her mother-in-law’s recommendations. “Now do as I tell you,” Naomi said, “take a bath and put on perfume and dress in your nicest clothes. Then go to the threshing floor, but don’t let Boaz see you until he has finished eating and drinking” (Ruth 3:3 NLT).

As a woman of faith, Naomi was confident her advice to her daughter-in-law was consistent with God’s plan. Encouraging Ruth to make herself more attractive was not intended to manipulate but arouse Boaz’s affection. As a result of Ruth following Naomi’s instructions, Boaz not only married Ruth, but their child became the grandfather of David and was directly in the lineage of Jesus.

In the book of Esther, when Esther wanted to save her people, she did not immediately go to her husband the king and ask for what she wanted. First, she made herself attractive to him, she made him a banquet, and she made him wonder. Even during the first banquet, instead of letting him know what she wanted, she invited him to another feast before revealing what was on her heart. She aroused his curiosity and made him more interested.

Lessons from Ruth and Esther

What lessons can we learn from Ruth and Esther?

Make yourself attractive. Both Ruth and Esther made an extra effort to fix themselves up. For women, you might want to refresh the way you fix your hair, get a stylish new outfit or two, or lose a little weight.  And for men, here’s a news flash. Women like men to look attractive too. So think about your weight as well and wear a nice shirt and neatly pressed pants when you are planning to see your wife.

  • Do we sometimes overlook the importance of the sense of smell? The first thing Naomi said to Ruth is, “Take a bath.” Make sure you bathe regularly, wear clean, fresh smelling clothes, and keep your breath sweet.
  • Be honest with yourself. Look in the mirror. Do you need to shed a few pounds? If so, start a healthy weight loss plan like Weight Watchers instead of a fad diet that merely puts you on a yo-yo cycle of losing/gaining weight.
  • Have you let yourself go over the years? Would a new hair style help? Scan some fashion magazines or talk to a hair stylist to get some ideas.
  • If you’re a woman, you might want to get a facial and freshen up your makeup. If you’re a man, maybe shape up your beard.
  • Think about the style and color of your clothes. Choose outfits that are appropriate for your body type and age. Select colors that complement your skin tone and hair color and bring out the color of your eyes.
  1. Be less predictable and less available. By holding off in telling him what she wanted, Esther aroused the king’s curiosity.  She awakened his interest and kept him coming back for more to see what she was up to.

Because you’re trying to win back your spouse’s heart, you may find yourself becoming co-dependent, trying to please him or her at every turn by doing what they want, when they want it, and how they want it. Instead, let God guide you in your reactions and decisions regarding your spouse. Like Esther, you may want to add variety to your responses and not be too predictable. Be the unique person that you are. And if you’re not sure what that means, let God guide you through His Word as He allows you to unwrap your uniqueness and individuality through your discovery of the gifts He has placed in your heart and hands.

God knows you inside and out.   “Psalm 139: 13 and 16 says, “You created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. . . All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.” The God who created you, loves you and wants you to be the best YOU you can be, and He knows just how to do it. When you ask Him for wisdom about how to become the new you He has wanted you to be from the beginning, He will show you.

To read more about how to unwrap the new you, my book, Fighting for Your Marriage while Separated, will help you look at yourself in new ways so at the end of this journey you can be proud of the person you have become whether or not your marriage is reconciled.

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Change Me First, Then Heal My Marriage

EACH YEAR DURING OUR CRISIS MARRIAGE CLASSES, participants from former years come to share their stories. One year, after we had dismissed to our small groups, I asked the women what they wanted to see happen in the coming weeks of class. One woman said, “I’ve seen all these couples come and tell us how their marriages have been restored, and one thing every one of them has said is that God changed them first, and then He healed their marriage. So I want to see how God wants to change me.”

Her perceptive comment impressed me greatly. And in the following weeks, I saw her listen to every word, ponder every idea, question what she didn’t understand, and own her mistakes as God opened her eyes to see them. Throughout our time together, she readily allowed God to make changes in her. Although her husband had initially said he wanted a divorce and had no interest in reconciling, a year later he decided to come to the class also, and their marriage was restored.

Change? What Me?

When crisis tears a marriage apart, something in the marriage is broken, and change is needed. Most people agree, but believe the change needs to happen in THE OTHER PERSON. And once they realize they can’t control or change their spouse, they believe the situation is hopeless.

But there is one person you do have control over. There is one person you can change. And that is YOU. Instead of focusing on your spouse’s faults and their contributions to the problems in your marriage, focus on your own.

Often we have blind spots when it comes to our own deficiencies, and we just don’t see them.  They are hidden from our eyes, buried beneath our personal assumptions, generational patterns of behavior, personal pride, and accumulated life experiences.  Scripture addresses this truth in Luke 6:42.

“how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself DO NOT SEE the plank that is in your own eye? . . . First remove the plank from your own eye, and THEN YOU WILL SEE CLEARLY to remove the speck that is in your brother’s eye.” (Emphasis added.)

How Do We Start?

So it all begins with you and your heavenly Father as you trust him to show you the truths about yourself. If you are willing to let God take you down a path of change, you may be surprised at the revelations He will show you on your journey. As you peer into the mirror of God’s Word with a humble spirit, one by one you may begin to see shortcomings in your own life that need change. These may include projected assumptions from past wounds that still need healing, negative approaches in your communication, reactions you have that demonstrate unhealthy attitudes, or ingrained outlooks or mindsets that are contrary to what pleases God.

By spending time in prayer, reading the Bible, listening to Christian radio and podcasts, reading Christian books and articles, and talking with Christian friends, the Lord can reveal to you your part in the marital breakdown and help you make changes that may eventually restore your relationship.

One thing to keep in mind, however, is that your intention is not to modify your behavior just to please your spouse, but to transform yourself into the person God created you to be.

God has plans for you. His desire is to draw you ever closer to Himself and grow you into a new and stronger person. You are His precious child, and a marital crisis may be the vehicle He uses to refine you into the person He first envisioned you to be.

“Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will” (Romans 12:12).

To learn more about some of the changes you can make that will impact your marriage and potentially turn your marriage around, you can find help for a troubled marriage in my book, Fighting for Your Marriage while Separated.

 

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Women, Do You Know How to Fight for and Save Your Marriage?

Photo by Kristina V

STORIES CAN SOMETIMES BE A BETTER TEACHING TOOL than mere words of instruction. So today, for you women who want to save your marriage, I want to tell you the story of Wendy. This is a sad story, but sometimes sad stories can show us the way to happier endings.

When Wendy’s husband left, her world fell apart. She never saw it coming. Her husband had been a loving and caring provider. Now suddenly, he said he was leaving. Her mind spun in confusion as she watched him pack up his things. Her heart raced.

“Where are you going?” she asked. “Why are you doing this?”

He shook his head and nuzzled the head of their dog, then headed toward the door.

She grabbed his arm. “I don’t understand. Why are you leaving? When are you coming back?”

“I’m sorry. I just can’t do this anymore. I need a break.”

As he reached for the door handle, tears began streaming down her face. “I can’t believe you’re doing this! Why are you leaving? Where are you going?”

“I’m sorry. I’ll give you a call.” The door closed firmly behind him and soon she heard the car engine roar to life. From the window, she watched his truck pull out of the driveway and head down the street. Wendy stood watching for a moment in shock, then collapsed on the couch.

For the next several days, Wendy walked around like one of the living dead. Her mind was in a fog. She was heartbroken. She called a couple of her friends. They were shocked too, but didn’t know what to say. She called her husband on the phone, hoping he would explain, but his answers were vague and unsettling. She suggested counseling, but he said he couldn’t do it right now. He wouldn’t know what to say.

With the shock and heartbreak of her husband’s sudden departure, Wendy’s reactions were very normal at this point.

But after the initial pain, she had a choice. What direction would she take from this point forward?

A Wrong Direction

Wendy could not push back the pain of her emotions and they began to spiral out of control. Her mind spun in every direction with fears, anger, regrets. For days she’d lie in bed, too depressed to even get up to dress and comb her hair or take calls from friends who wanted to help. The best she could do was nibble on some crackers, feed the dog and let him out in the backyard when he needed to go outside. She could think of nothing except the terrible pain her husband was causing her, and as her emotions changed from day to day—sometimes from hour to hour—she called her husband. Sometimes she called to beg him to come home, other times she sobbed on the phone, asking what was to become of her. More than once, she sent long texts lashing out at him, accusing him, berating him, telling him what a terrible person he was.

“How can you do this to me? How can you treat me this way!” she asked. She called mutual friends and asked them to call too.

Finally, one of Wendy’s friends suggested she take a class at church for those whose marriages were in crisis. Wendy went, and for the first time, she experienced hope.

A New Opportunity

She was told if she wanted to save her marriage, “you need to give your husband space – to put your husband on the back burner and focus on God.” Leaders told her to pray for her husband, say positive things to him when they had contact, and refrain from criticizing him. This was a time for her to put aside all expectations from her husband and simply be a giving, positive friend to him. She was even encouraged to take care of herself and do things she enjoyed without her husband. The other women in her group were dealing with similar situations, and she found the group atmosphere to be encouraging.

She began doing many of the things she was told to do, and her husband began to respond in positive ways. He even began dropping by the house on occasion, admitting to her that he still loved her but felt suffocated by her neediness.

She tried to put into practice the things they talked about in her class, but it was hard. In fact, one thing she just couldn’t do. The women were told to “let go” of their spouses, not to expect anything from them, and trust God with their emotions. She just didn’t understand how to do this. She loved her husband. She wanted him back. She wanted him to love her. She couldn’t let go of him and tell God she would be alright if her husband didn’t come back. She knew for a fact that she wouldn’t be alright if her husband didn’t come back. She needed her husband in her life. Yes, God was good and powerful, but He wasn’t a substitute for her husband. She couldn’t take a chance on letting go of her husband.

One evening her husband came over to visit, but instead of focusing on her and talking with her, all he did was play with their golden retriever. Her initial pain of abandonment returned. Self-pity took hold. But instead of taking her feelings to God to lay the pain at his feet, she just couldn’t keep from saying what was on her mind. “You love the dog more than me,” she complained to her husband.

Her husband didn’t respond but continued playing with the dog.

Although Wendy knew the importance of letting go and keeping things positive when she spent time with her husband, once again her emotions pulled her off balance. She couldn’t resist expressing her dissatisfaction with her husband’s lack of attention. The need for her husband’s love and affirmation held her hostage to her emotions. Her neediness was driving him away. Surrendering her pain to God would have released her from her obsession, providing God the opportunity to breathe a new sense of freedom, love, and commitment into her husband’s heart. But she couldn’t let go and slowly lapsed back into her former pattern of accusing him and pleading with him to come home.

Eventually, her husband stopped coming by. He went days without returning calls and texts. Her broken heart lay in pieces as the relationship slowly ebbed away.

Doesn’t Have To Be This Way if You Want to Save Your Marriage

I hate these sad endings because I know there’s a better way. If you want to save your marriage, the answers lay in the hands of our loving Father. He has a plan for us. He knows where our path will lead. He knows our needs and the needs of our partners. And He can put it all together. But we have to trust Him. We have to lay it all at His feet. We need to surrender our spouses, our marriages, our circumstances, to Him and let Him take control. Then we need to step back, wait, and trust Him for His timing while staying tuned for His voice and following His lead when He tells us to act. While we wait, He will build us up and give us His strength so we are stronger than we were before, strong enough to handle whatever comes our way. Isaiah 40:31 assures us, “Those who wait on the Lord will renew their strength. They will mount up on wings like eagles. They will run and not grow weary. They will walk and not faint.”

There’s another story with a happier ending I invite you to read as well. A true story I posted on Heart Talk in the past . . . the story of Marta. If you want to see a story of success, a story where the woman took the right path, surrendered her marriage to God, and ended up restoring her marriage, Marta’s story is a story that will encourage you as you take steps to save your own marriage..

Yes, unfortunately, we need to acknowledge the fact that our marriages may not survive. We may not be able to save our marriage. Our spouses’ heart may not turn back. God allows them to have free will and make their own decisions. But when placing our situations in the hands of our loving Father, He will make all things new for us and give us a new beginning—either with our partner or by taking us down a new and equally fulfilling road that He prepares for us when we continue to follow His lead.

“I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope ad a future.” Jeremiah 29:11.

Next week: The Challenge of Letting Go

If you want to save your marriage, I encourage you to get my book, Fighting for Your Marriage while Separated. It will walk you step by step through the labyrinths of this difficult journey so you can find the happy ending you are looking for.

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Let’s Talk about Marriage in Crisis . . .

Photo by Ben White

For the past several months of 2020 our world has been in such crisis that I have spent much of my time on Heart Talk just working through the daily troubles we’re experiencing together as a people. As a result, I haven’t focused on marriage as much as I’d like.

So today I’m beginning a series on marriage—particularly focusing on how to work through a marriage in crisis so you come out on the other side in one piece. During the following weeks, some of my posts will actually be segments I initially planned to include in my latest book, Fighting for Your Marriage while Separated, but which didn’t appear in the final release. With these posts, I hope to continue walking beside you as you work to bring restoration to your marriage.

If your life is embroiled in chaos because of what is happening in your marriage, throwing a pandemic into the mix certainly doesn’t help. An already broken heart has a hard time holding the pieces together. Discouragement, depression, and hopelessness swirl around you like a bad dream. Loneliness engulfs you, and you can’t even reach out to people because we’re in a pandemic.

Even without a pandemic, those who are separated or have a marriage in crisis are some of the loneliest people around. A study conducted in 1991 about loneliness in adults reported that the separated are more lonely than any other group of adults categorized by marital status. In fact, 29.6% of the Separated say they are lonely compared to 20.6% widowed, 20.4% divorced, 14.5% never married and 4.6% married. Even if you could go out and spend time with people, when you are separated, you don’t feel like you belong anywhere. And when you’re in the middle of marital crisis but still together, your couple times with others may seem disingenuous.

Hope seems like a foreign word in another language. What does hope even mean? What does it look like? Where do you find it?

It begins by taking a step back from the crisis and getting a new perspective. It begins by focusing your heart and mind on the invitation of Psalm 46:10, “Be still and know that I am God.”  In our lonely state, we can enter into a communication with our God that goes deeper than what we’ve known before. He can open our eyes to things we’ve missed and truths that penetrate any errors in our thinking. And He’s always near.

As you wait, let these words form a prayer on your lips, “But now, Lord, what do I look for? My hope is in you.” Psalm 39:7

In our marriage classes, many times it has been Psalm 46:10 that has redirected a person’s thoughts and actions to bring them to a place where they can change the course of their marriage. And, often, it’s a day of prayer that shifts a person’s thinking and starts them on the path toward reconciliation.  Alberto’s story, in my book, Fighting for Your Marriage while Separated, testifies to this very truth. It was when he was quiet before God that God began turning his life around. As a result, he and his wife reconciled, and now, several years later, their marriage is thriving. To this day Alberto serves God with a humble heart and has been involved in helping other men on their path to reconciliation in their marriages.

So today, stop! Look to the Lord. Let Him quiet your spirit so you can begin to hear His voice.

We wait in hope for the Lord; he is our help and our shield. Psalm 33:20

Why, my soul, are you downcast? Why so disturbed within me? Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Savior and my God. Psalm 42:5

If you’re experiencing a marriage in crisis, let my first book, Broken Heart on Hold, be that needed friend, walking beside you to help you quiet your heart while you look to God to heal your emotions and give you strength for the journey.

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Planning Ahead in 2021

Photo by Jude Beck

As we happily throw away last year’s calendar and move on from 2020, it’s time to go to God and seek direction for 2021.

The grand plans we had for 2020 may have gone awry when the pandemic hit, but we can use it as a good reminder of what scripture tells us in Proverbs 19:21, “Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but it is the Lord’s purpose that prevails.” We don’t know what the future holds, but as Christians we know Who holds the future.  We can make our resolutions. We can make our plans. But only as we give them to God will God’s best for us succeed.

So let’s include God as we set our goals for 2021.

The Goal Setting Guide below provides an opportunity to set goals in seven areas of your life. As you think over the past year and look ahead to the future, I encourage you to read the accompanying scriptures and pray over how God may be leading you in 2021.

GOAL SETTING FOR THE NEW YEAR

I. PERSONAL GOALS

Practical Steps For Achieving:

 

“And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.” Phil. 4:19

II. MARRIAGE AND RELATIONSHIP GOALS:

Practical Steps For Achieving:

 

“Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” Eph. 5:21

III. FAMILY GOALS:

Practical Steps for Achieving:

 

“Love is patient; love is kind. It does not envy; it does not boast; it is not proud. It is not rude; it is not self-seeking; it is not easily angered; it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.” I Cor. 13:4-7

IV. CAREER GOALS:

Practical Steps for Achieving:

 

“Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and your plans will succeed.” Prov. 16:3

V. ATTITUDE GOALS:

Practical Steps for Achieving:

 

“…be made new in the attitude of your minds, and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.” Eph. 4:23-24

VI. GOALS OF SERVICE TO GOD AND OTHERS:

Practical Steps for Achieving:

 

“And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.” Heb. 13:16

VII. SPIRITUAL GOALS:

Practical Steps for Achieving:

 

“And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way, bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to His glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience and joyfully giving thanks to the Father…” Col. 1:10-11

 

If you are struggling to understand how to move ahead in 2021 because of problems in your marriage or family, I encourage you to check out my latest award-winning book, Fighting for Your Marriage while Separated.

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