Unfaithful: Hope & Healing after Infidelity – Interview with Co-Author, Mona Shriver

WHEN INFIDELITY INVADES the sacred protection of marriage, shock waves strike at the very foundation of the relationship. The revelation brings unbelievable pain, and many marriages don’t survive. But they can. There is hope. According to Mona and Gary Shriver, authors of Unfaithful: Hope & Healing after Infidelity, a marriage can heal from the trauma of infidelity and eventually thrive once again.

For them, this isn’t just a theory. It’s personal. They have lived both the devastation and the recovery. And Mona is here to share from her heart what she learned from this experience and what she can now pass onto others about the hope and healing that is possible. Their story and their book, Unfaithful, is one I regularly recommend to those in our classes, and I am so pleased to be able to introduce her to you today.

Linda: Mona, I know your book, Unfaithful: Hope & Healing after Infidelity, is based on your personal story, and that you and your husband went through adultery in your own marriage. What led you to share such a deeply personal journey?

Mona: I was absolutely blind sighted by Gary’s admission of being unfaithful. I never, ever thought this could happen to us. Never thought Gary would be capable of such a thing.

Gary and I had been married twenty years. Happily, I thought. We had three active boys between the ages of seven and fourteen. Life was busy. We were Christians. We were best friends. The revelation of his adultery made me question everything I thought I knew, including myself. Gary wanted to save our marriage and I knew that was in line with God’s word. But frankly, I didn’t believe for one minute that we could heal. I knew our marriage was over, but I also knew I had to “try” so that when we did divorce, I could say we tried.

What I learned, what we learned, during that process was the reason we wrote Unfaithful. I learned that you can rebuild, or even build anew, a marriage with love, trust, intimacy and respect after infidelity. What we call a healthy marriage. It can be done. God can do it if you’ll both follow Him in the rebuilding. It was the hardest thing either of us has ever done but we are so glad we did.

Most people don’t believe that. That’s because all we normally see are marriages that didn’t heal. We had been told couples healed but when I asked to speak with someone who had done it, no one could be found. Later our counselor asked us to be that couple for someone else.

That’s how Hope & Healing Ministries began. The four of us met for a while, then began working alongside couples in our support groups. As we watched what God was doing for these marriages, the book just had to be written so others could hear the same words of hope.

Linda: You said marriages can heal from infidelity. People can heal. Tell my readers how that can actually happen. What does it take?   

Mona: We tell couples only two things are required to start the healing process. First is a willingness to try. Both of you willing to work together to try and heal. This doesn’t mean you really believe you can do it. I didn’t. You may not know how you feel about the person you’re married to right now. Very understandable. It just means you’ll try.

That meant I would first commit to God. Sitting at God’s feet, seeking His guidance, being willing to do things His way.

The bottom line was that it wasn’t about what I had done or hadn’t done—blame. It wasn’t about trying to control my spouse or making sure our efforts were “even.” It wasn’t about making anybody happy. And it wasn’t about single handedly saving a marriage or manipulating healing. It was about being the person God created me to be whether I remained married or became single. It was about doing my part and not settling for anything less than real healing.

The second requirement is transparent honesty. Answering questions honestly. Expressing what you think and feel as best you can with as much kindness and respect as possible. This is not the time to acquiesce without input. Honesty sets the foundation for healing, and without it, the work you think you’ve done will crumble when the dishonesty is exposed. And everything counts right now. This is hard stuff, and sometimes you have the opportunity to apologize for how you communicated a truth. But as you continue to work together, you can learn how to better communicate. This is where support and a good Christian counselor can help you with new and better tools. We sure didn’t know what to do or how to do it. Some of us need to speak up more. Some of us need to be quiet more. Both of us need to listen. And treat each other with respect, not because they “deserve it” but because God asked us to treat all people with respect.

Linda: Someone might say, “I’m not sure I want to save this marriage.” Now what?

Mona: The revelation of adultery is comparable to the sudden death of someone you love. It is a trauma and it is that big. It overwhelms your ability to adapt. There are physiological changes in your brain that effect how you process information. You’re a mess—emotionally, physically, and spiritually. That means this is not the best time to make major life changing decisions.

So what do you do? Focus on healing. Even if you separate, the healing is still the focus. There is a wound and it’s huge. It needs to heal. And if your spouse is willing to work through that healing process with you, then that can make your healing a bit easier.

If you have children, this person will continue to be a part of your life whether or not the marriage heals. Your children have two parents and no amount of anger or bitterness will change that. In fact, those most hurt by unhealed wounds are the children. So go ahead and invest the time and effort towards healing. Your kids are worth it.

You can focus on healing because you really have nothing more to lose. Your life is already in chaos. The truth is that the quickest way out of this pain and to feeling good about life again is to heal. There is a third choice beside giving up (divorce) and giving in (staying in a miserable relationship) and that is to heal. As the healing progresses you will be better prepared to consider those life changing decisions.

Linda: How long does it take to heal from infidelity? 

Mona: The truly honest answer is that it takes as long as it takes. It takes until both of you agree the healing is complete.

So what does a healed marriage look like? How do you know when it’s done? As you work through the process, gain some understanding, grieve that which was lost, and resurrect that which is necessary, the acute pain goes away. You will never forget—that is impossible. But it will not dominate your thoughts or control your life like it does in the beginning. It will become a sad memory. But we all live with sad memories in our lives—that doesn’t mean we quit living.

Healing is complete when both of you feel you can approach your spouse with anything. Now that doesn’t mean all your talks are fun—we are still human beings after all. The point is to listen to each other and treat each other with respect and kindness even if we don’t agree so we can reach decisions with which we can both live.

The realization that we were fully healed came in retrospect. It happened so slowly I missed the moment. That was okay.

Linda: What else can help couples heal from adultery? 

Mona: Educate yourself on this process of healing. Unfortunately, not all therapists and pastors agree on the best way to heal from adultery. That can not only be confusing it can make it more difficult. We have several recommendations on our website at Hope & Healing Ministries. hopeandhealingministries.us

We also have a free resource available that might be a good place to start. The Crisis Support Booklet offers ten foundational truths in bite-sized pieces about adultery recovery with encouragement from others who have walked this path. Go to the website, click “Couples Support”, click “Infidelity Recovery” and scroll down to “Crisis Support Booklet.” Each person will benefit from having their own copy.

Linda: Is there anything else you’d like to share with our readers? 

Mona: There is so much more I wish I could share. So many have questions on forgiveness, trust and so much more. Unfortunately not all can be addressed here. But you can find answers that will aid your journey to healing.

Oswald Chambers says this. “It is not true to say that God wants to teach us something in our trials. Through every cloud He brings our way, He wants us to unlearn something”. I found this so true in the journey of our healing. I had some “unlearning” to do.

This healing journey is not easy but it is so worth it. Gary nor I are the same people we were before we went through the healing process to rebuild our marriage. And quite frankly, we’re glad. We like ourselves and each other a whole lot more.

You don’t have to go through this alone. There are resources out there to help you. We encourage you to seek and access the resources you need. May the Lord give you the wisdom and the strength to complete the journey.

Linda: Speaking of resources, how can your book Unfaithful help couples who decide they want to try to work through the healing after infidelity takes place in their marriage?

Mona: Our book, Unfaithful: Hope and Healing after Infidelity is written from the perspective of a couple who has been through adultery recovery. By switching back and forth between the perspective of the betrayer and the one betrayed, the book helps couples better understand each other’s experience as they move through the process of healing.

This book conveys some common elements of the healing process along with Biblical principles to help guide readers through recovery. There is also a section on emotional affairs. When the book was revised we were able to add a lot of what we’d learned from the experts and from the hundreds of couples we’ve been privileged to walk alongside. And at the end of each chapter we’ve included discussion questions that can be a great way to begin addressing the issues couples face as they work through their recovery.

Linda: I know in the past you’ve also had marriage intensives for couples after infidelity. Please tell us about them and what you’re doing currently.

Mona: We will always talk with and support couples as long as we’re breathing so we’re not quitting ministry, but we are making changes to the method in which we deliver it. We did Weekend Intensives from 2010 through 2019 and had basically decided to cease offering those when COVID hit. So we’re spending this time making videos of what we consider to be our most important sessions from those weekends. They are filmed and currently being edited so should be available within a few months. Gary just happens to be a professional audio video engineer so he’s just beginning the editing portion of this project. These will also be available on YouTube. We’ll be notifying those on our email list when they’re ready.

Linda: How can people find out more about you, your book Unfaithful, and your ministry?

Mona: People can reach out to us by going to our website, http://hopeandhealing.us.

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Women, Do You Know How to Fight for and Save Your Marriage?

Photo by Kristina V

STORIES CAN SOMETIMES BE A BETTER TEACHING TOOL than mere words of instruction. So today, for you women who want to save your marriage, I want to tell you the story of Wendy. This is a sad story, but sometimes sad stories can show us the way to happier endings.

When Wendy’s husband left, her world fell apart. She never saw it coming. Her husband had been a loving and caring provider. Now suddenly, he said he was leaving. Her mind spun in confusion as she watched him pack up his things. Her heart raced.

“Where are you going?” she asked. “Why are you doing this?”

He shook his head and nuzzled the head of their dog, then headed toward the door.

She grabbed his arm. “I don’t understand. Why are you leaving? When are you coming back?”

“I’m sorry. I just can’t do this anymore. I need a break.”

As he reached for the door handle, tears began streaming down her face. “I can’t believe you’re doing this! Why are you leaving? Where are you going?”

“I’m sorry. I’ll give you a call.” The door closed firmly behind him and soon she heard the car engine roar to life. From the window, she watched his truck pull out of the driveway and head down the street. Wendy stood watching for a moment in shock, then collapsed on the couch.

For the next several days, Wendy walked around like one of the living dead. Her mind was in a fog. She was heartbroken. She called a couple of her friends. They were shocked too, but didn’t know what to say. She called her husband on the phone, hoping he would explain, but his answers were vague and unsettling. She suggested counseling, but he said he couldn’t do it right now. He wouldn’t know what to say.

With the shock and heartbreak of her husband’s sudden departure, Wendy’s reactions were very normal at this point.

But after the initial pain, she had a choice. What direction would she take from this point forward?

A Wrong Direction

Wendy could not push back the pain of her emotions and they began to spiral out of control. Her mind spun in every direction with fears, anger, regrets. For days she’d lie in bed, too depressed to even get up to dress and comb her hair or take calls from friends who wanted to help. The best she could do was nibble on some crackers, feed the dog and let him out in the backyard when he needed to go outside. She could think of nothing except the terrible pain her husband was causing her, and as her emotions changed from day to day—sometimes from hour to hour—she called her husband. Sometimes she called to beg him to come home, other times she sobbed on the phone, asking what was to become of her. More than once, she sent long texts lashing out at him, accusing him, berating him, telling him what a terrible person he was.

“How can you do this to me? How can you treat me this way!” she asked. She called mutual friends and asked them to call too.

Finally, one of Wendy’s friends suggested she take a class at church for those whose marriages were in crisis. Wendy went, and for the first time, she experienced hope.

A New Opportunity

She was told if she wanted to save her marriage, “you need to give your husband space – to put your husband on the back burner and focus on God.” Leaders told her to pray for her husband, say positive things to him when they had contact, and refrain from criticizing him. This was a time for her to put aside all expectations from her husband and simply be a giving, positive friend to him. She was even encouraged to take care of herself and do things she enjoyed without her husband. The other women in her group were dealing with similar situations, and she found the group atmosphere to be encouraging.

She began doing many of the things she was told to do, and her husband began to respond in positive ways. He even began dropping by the house on occasion, admitting to her that he still loved her but felt suffocated by her neediness.

She tried to put into practice the things they talked about in her class, but it was hard. In fact, one thing she just couldn’t do. The women were told to “let go” of their spouses, not to expect anything from them, and trust God with their emotions. She just didn’t understand how to do this. She loved her husband. She wanted him back. She wanted him to love her. She couldn’t let go of him and tell God she would be alright if her husband didn’t come back. She knew for a fact that she wouldn’t be alright if her husband didn’t come back. She needed her husband in her life. Yes, God was good and powerful, but He wasn’t a substitute for her husband. She couldn’t take a chance on letting go of her husband.

One evening her husband came over to visit, but instead of focusing on her and talking with her, all he did was play with their golden retriever. Her initial pain of abandonment returned. Self-pity took hold. But instead of taking her feelings to God to lay the pain at his feet, she just couldn’t keep from saying what was on her mind. “You love the dog more than me,” she complained to her husband.

Her husband didn’t respond but continued playing with the dog.

Although Wendy knew the importance of letting go and keeping things positive when she spent time with her husband, once again her emotions pulled her off balance. She couldn’t resist expressing her dissatisfaction with her husband’s lack of attention. The need for her husband’s love and affirmation held her hostage to her emotions. Her neediness was driving him away. Surrendering her pain to God would have released her from her obsession, providing God the opportunity to breathe a new sense of freedom, love, and commitment into her husband’s heart. But she couldn’t let go and slowly lapsed back into her former pattern of accusing him and pleading with him to come home.

Eventually, her husband stopped coming by. He went days without returning calls and texts. Her broken heart lay in pieces as the relationship slowly ebbed away.

Doesn’t Have To Be This Way if You Want to Save Your Marriage

I hate these sad endings because I know there’s a better way. If you want to save your marriage, the answers lay in the hands of our loving Father. He has a plan for us. He knows where our path will lead. He knows our needs and the needs of our partners. And He can put it all together. But we have to trust Him. We have to lay it all at His feet. We need to surrender our spouses, our marriages, our circumstances, to Him and let Him take control. Then we need to step back, wait, and trust Him for His timing while staying tuned for His voice and following His lead when He tells us to act. While we wait, He will build us up and give us His strength so we are stronger than we were before, strong enough to handle whatever comes our way. Isaiah 40:31 assures us, “Those who wait on the Lord will renew their strength. They will mount up on wings like eagles. They will run and not grow weary. They will walk and not faint.”

There’s another story with a happier ending I invite you to read as well. A true story I posted on Heart Talk in the past . . . the story of Marta. If you want to see a story of success, a story where the woman took the right path, surrendered her marriage to God, and ended up restoring her marriage, Marta’s story is a story that will encourage you as you take steps to save your own marriage..

Yes, unfortunately, we need to acknowledge the fact that our marriages may not survive. We may not be able to save our marriage. Our spouses’ heart may not turn back. God allows them to have free will and make their own decisions. But when placing our situations in the hands of our loving Father, He will make all things new for us and give us a new beginning—either with our partner or by taking us down a new and equally fulfilling road that He prepares for us when we continue to follow His lead.

“I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope ad a future.” Jeremiah 29:11.

Next week: The Challenge of Letting Go

If you want to save your marriage, I encourage you to get my book, Fighting for Your Marriage while Separated. It will walk you step by step through the labyrinths of this difficult journey so you can find the happy ending you are looking for.

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Men, Do You Know How To Fight for Your Marriage?

Photo by Diego Fagundes

WHAT DOES A MAN DO when his wife threatens to leave or get a divorce? His marriage can still be saved – even after a separation, but there is a right way and a wrong way to do it.  Too often, men don’t know how to fight for their marriage and end up doing it the wrong way. But be encouraged! There is a right way to fight for your marriage, and with a little patience and soul searching, you have a good chance of turning things around. Below are two stories – the first  shows the wrong way to fight for your marriage; the second shows the right way.

DOING IT THE WRONG WAY

When Wayne’s wife told him she wanted to get a divorce, he was stunned. He never saw it coming. At first, he just didn’t believe her when she said she wanted a divorce. He knew she loved him and usually went along with what he wanted. She couldn’t be serious. So he sent her some flowers and told her he loved her.

When she wasn’t swayed from her decision and told him she indeed was serious and wanted a divorce, he spent some time in denial.  He would just go on as normal for awhile, and she’d get over it. But she didn’t get over it. She moved out.

Now he was angry. He went to her new apartment and argued with her, trying to persuade her to change her mind. He ridiculed her for wanting to run away from problems. But she didn’t back down. She asked him to leave.

Wayne was not used to losing. He was a born winner, and he would figure out how to get her to change her mind. He sent her flowers again, then bought her a lovely coat she’d been wanting.

She returned the coat and said she would be filing for divorce soon.

When he received the papers, he was devastated. But he wasn’t about to let her see his pain. No, he didn’t want a divorce, but he wasn’t going to crawl to her either.

He knew how to play this game, and he would win.

Gathering together all his male gutzpa, he decided he would simply show her she couldn’t win. He’d show her that without him, she would have a hard time surviving on her own. He’d show her who was boss. He hired an attorney and figured out how to squash her hopes of separating and divorcing by using every trick he could to keep her from getting any of his money. He fought to keep her from getting any of his retirement. He fought to deny her a share of his 401K. He fought to keep her from continuing on his insurance. Some fights he won, and some he lost. It was a nasty fight. And it became a nasty and bitter divorce—a divorce that DID take place despite his bitter determination.

When the divorce happened, reality set in for him. Suddenly, he realized he’d lost the love of his life. The fight was over, and she was gone. With the final decree, he was beside himself. How did this happen? How did he lose her? How would he go on without her? The pain he’d been holding back now had no place to go. He dissolved into a state of depression – sometimes trying to escape with a bottle, sometimes with other women, sometimes in a lonely state of grief. He even called her once, crying on the phone, telling her he loved her and wanted her back. But it was over. The divorce was final. She was moving on.

Occasionally, he tried to reach out to her with a note of apology, but now she didn’t even answer. His heart was broken, and it was years before he was able to move forward again.

A BETTER WAY TO FIGHT FOR YOUR MARRIAGE

When Seth’s wife told him she wanted a divorce, he was shocked. He never expected his loving and agreeable wife to want to leave him. He immediately questioned her, asked her why and what he could do to change her mind. She said there was nothing he could do, that it was too late for change, and she’d made up her mind.  Seth was devastated.

Although heartbroken, he took a step back from their situation and tried to get a fresh look. He talked to a pastor, a counselor, and a trusted Christian friend.  They advised him to trust God, to give his wife some space, and to ask God to show him the truth about what had been happening in his relationship with his wife. He turned to God in prayer, asking God for wisdom and direction. He found a couple of Christian books, and all the while, instead of chasing after his wife, he gave her some space.

As Seth searched the scriptures, read the books, and talked to his counselor, he began to see changes he needed to make in himself. He realized he’d been too controlling and too dismissive about his wife’s needs. He realized he hadn’t given her a voice in resolving conflicts and disagreements. He always won the arguments – or so he thought. But did he really win? Or did he just wear her out until she gave in to him?

As he recognized his failures, he wrote her a letter, apologizing to her for the many times he’d been insensitive to her and for railroading his own agenda instead of truly listening to her about her own needs and wants. Although she thanked him, she had no intention of changing course. She still wanted a divorce.

Seth was horribly discouraged, but his Christian friend as well as his counselor told him to give it time. That’s what the books said too. When he had contact with his wife, he didn’t press her or argue with her. Instead, he tried to encourage her and show her appreciation.  He suggested they go to counseling and when she refused, telling him it was over, he told her he understood he’d made a lot of mistakes, and she had reason to want to back away. But he also said he was trying to make changes, and he thought they could work it out if they went to counseling and trusted God for their marriage. He told her he didn’t want a divorce, and if she wanted it, she’d have to be the one to file.

She visited a lawyer and talked about filing, but time went by with very little change. Whenever they had contact, he tried to have a positive attitude. He offered to help her with her car when it broke down and took care of her cat when she went away to visit her parents in another state. He tried to be supportive of her.

One day he called her to tell her about a change in their insurance, and they ended up having a long conversation – not about their relationship or their future, but just about what each of them were doing. They soon began having other conversations by text and phone – congenial conversations about current events in their lives and the lives of their families.  Finally, in one of those conversations, Seth asked if she’d like to meet for coffee. She agreed, and gradually, they began to meet for other occasions – once to shop for a present for his sister who was having a baby, another time to catch one of their favorite music acts that had come to town. By this time, two years had gone by since his wife first said she wanted a divorce. They continued for several more months, having a merely friendly relationship – not talking about their marriage or their future together—just enjoying the times they spent together.

Finally, one day over coffee, his wife looked at him, and said, “You’ve changed.”

He felt his heart thumping inside of him. “Thank you,” he said. “God has been showing me some things I needed to see.” She smiled, and he smiled back. And then he said it. “Do you think there’s a chance we might be able to work this out?”

“Perhaps,” she said. “Maybe we should give it a try.”

These two stories are compilations from true stories that have happened to actual people. If your marriage is in crisis, I pray they will help you take an honest look at yourself so you can take a step back and move forward with God to bring positive change to your marriage.

If you want to fight for your marriage and avoid common pitfalls in order to save it, my book, Fighting for Your Marriage while Separated, will guide you through this difficult labyrinth of decision making and confusion so you can find the happy ending you are looking for.

Next week: Women: Do you know how to fight for your marriage?

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Yes, Your Marriage Can Be Saved – Author Interview with Joe and Michelle Williams

When a person’s marriage crashes into crisis, one of the first questions they may ask, is, “Can my marriage be saved? Or is it too late?” Joe and Michelle Williams’ book answers that question directly. Their book, Yes, Your Marriage Can Be Saved, not only tells you that yes, it can, but it provides numerous tools to help you actually do it.

Yes, Your Marriage Can Be Saved is a companion book to the course the Williams had previously created called Marriage 911, a course that my husband and I have lead for 14 years in Central Florida, and a course that takes place in numerous cities across America. If you have taken Marriage 911, this book will solidify for you the principles in the class. If not, it will give you fresh perspectives to help you discover the truth in the title of their book. For, yes, your marriage can be saved. I am pleased today to interview Joe and Michelle Williams about their book.

Linda: Michelle, tell us what lead you to write your book, Yes, Your Marriage Can Be Saved, that was published by Focus on the Family in 2006?

Michelle: After Joe and I reconciled from being separated for two years, we began helping marriages in crisis in 1990. In 1997 we created a workbook and a 12-week curriculum that many churches in California and across the nation began using to help couples who seemed to have no hope. As you know, we also began traveling to many of the churches, including yours, and meeting many leaders and authors. Many of the authors, including yourself, encouraged us to write a book using true stories from the many people we had helped.

Linda: So, Joe, would you say that Yes, Your Marriage Can Be Saved is a book that includes only stories of saved marriages?

 Joe: No, even though the book is filled with true stories of people whose marriages were on the brink of divorce we felt it was important to include stories of marriages that didn’t make it. For instance, one of the guys that I worked with during his marriage crisis did everything he could to save the marriage, but his wife had no desire to work on the marriage and finally filed for divorce. I wanted his story in there because he was an example of men who need to stay plugged into a support group and not go through their pain alone. Steve did that, and even though he has not remarried, he became a godly man for his children and had peace through his difficult time.

Linda: Please tell us more about the book. I know it includes stories from those you have walked alongside. But what else is in your book?

 Michelle: Our story of separation and reconciliation is also woven throughout each chapter and includes all the reconciliation tools that are in our Marriage 911: First Response workbook. At the end of each chapter are questions that can be answered in small groups, as a couple, or privately.

Linda: Can you give an example of how Yes, Your Marriage Can Be Saved differs from the Marriage 911 workbook since it includes the same tools?

Michelle: Yes, as you know, our 12-week workbook is meant to be done with a same gender support partner or in a same-gender class, without the participation of their spouse. In contrast, Yes, Your Marriage Can be Saved is designed to be read as a couple so they can contemplate the questions together or with other couples. The examples and communication tips are explained in a way that is easy for a couple to discuss since there is a lot of humor intertwined with teaching them better ways to disagree or accept personality and anger-expression differences.

Linda: So, if someone is separated or has a spouse who doesn’t want to read it, is the book still helpful?

Joe: I don’t like to read, so Michelle reads out loud to me while we drive. I’ve “read” tons of books without ever having to! Most of the guys I know feel the same, but all of them have said they don’t mind being read to.

Michelle: If someone is physically separated we recommend getting a small group together or at least one other same-gender person to read it and discuss weekly. But, honesty, many of the people we have heard from over the years have read it alone, put the tools in action and made their own personal changes without their spouse ever participating. As Joe mentioned, there are several stories of marriages that were not saved, but lives changed for the better and we include those stories to encourage the reader whose marriage may not be saved. Remember, the name of the books is “Yes, Your Marriage CAN Be Saved”…not WILL.

Linda: Do people use both the Marriage 911 workbook and the Yes, Your Marriage Can be Saved book together?

Michelle: That is always the best way if a church is offering a 12-week class. The workbook has all the tools, but not all the examples. In Yes, Your Marriage Can Be Saved each tool is discussed in depth with several examples of additional communication tips. Since a couple can read the book together they do not have to have their own, as they do with the workbook.

Linda:  Can you two give an example of the tools and communication tips?

Joe: The first thing we recommend in Yes, Your Marriage Can Be Saved is to create a support system so that the reader does not go through their marriage crisis alone. Being isolated and alone is what Satan wants, and when someone is alone and hopeless the enemy wins. The support system of our ministry is key—regardless of how the marriage is doing. Another important factor about having support is that it creates accountability. In my own life, until Michelle and I separated in 1987 for two years, I had never been accountable to a group of men. I think my being in a men’s group and studying the word with other guys played a big part of Michelle and I reconciling.

 Michelle: We know the importance of accepting differences when it comes to communicating, because that was one of the biggest hurdles for us in our marriage. Woven throughout the book are tips and tools to deal with anger, honesty, fear, and personality differences. These differences can really show up when storms such as parenting, finances, or family drama blindside a marriage. So in Yes, Your Marriage Can Be Saved we create examples of how to accept these differences and keep a right focus so couples or individuals can not only survive but actually thrive in the midst of difficulty.

Linda: Where can couples get the book?

Joe: They can order it from their local bookstore, or Amazon, or visit our website, Marriage911Godsway.com.  Many of the churches who offer our ministry have it on hand in their church library or bookstore.

Linda:  If someone wants to start a Marriage 911 program in their church, how should they go about it?

Michelle: It’s easy to start a ministry. Just visit the website: Marriage911Godsway.com, and order a leader’s kit. We have a step-by-step plan in the leader’s guide, which explains how to start a small group or class, or use the resources one-on-one. The weekly videos on our website can be used in a small group or class, or the person can do it on their own.

Linda: If someone wants to attend, but there isn’t a Marriage 911 class nearby, is there an alternative?

Joe: We offer trained national support partners and online videos once a person orders any of our workbooks or book.

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Let’s Talk about Marriage in Crisis . . .

Photo by Ben White

For the past several months of 2020 our world has been in such crisis that I have spent much of my time on Heart Talk just working through the daily troubles we’re experiencing together as a people. As a result, I haven’t focused on marriage as much as I’d like.

So today I’m beginning a series on marriage—particularly focusing on how to work through a marriage in crisis so you come out on the other side in one piece. During the following weeks, some of my posts will actually be segments I initially planned to include in my latest book, Fighting for Your Marriage while Separated, but which didn’t appear in the final release. With these posts, I hope to continue walking beside you as you work to bring restoration to your marriage.

If your life is embroiled in chaos because of what is happening in your marriage, throwing a pandemic into the mix certainly doesn’t help. An already broken heart has a hard time holding the pieces together. Discouragement, depression, and hopelessness swirl around you like a bad dream. Loneliness engulfs you, and you can’t even reach out to people because we’re in a pandemic.

Even without a pandemic, those who are separated or have a marriage in crisis are some of the loneliest people around. A study conducted in 1991 about loneliness in adults reported that the separated are more lonely than any other group of adults categorized by marital status. In fact, 29.6% of the Separated say they are lonely compared to 20.6% widowed, 20.4% divorced, 14.5% never married and 4.6% married. Even if you could go out and spend time with people, when you are separated, you don’t feel like you belong anywhere. And when you’re in the middle of marital crisis but still together, your couple times with others may seem disingenuous.

Hope seems like a foreign word in another language. What does hope even mean? What does it look like? Where do you find it?

It begins by taking a step back from the crisis and getting a new perspective. It begins by focusing your heart and mind on the invitation of Psalm 46:10, “Be still and know that I am God.”  In our lonely state, we can enter into a communication with our God that goes deeper than what we’ve known before. He can open our eyes to things we’ve missed and truths that penetrate any errors in our thinking. And He’s always near.

As you wait, let these words form a prayer on your lips, “But now, Lord, what do I look for? My hope is in you.” Psalm 39:7

In our marriage classes, many times it has been Psalm 46:10 that has redirected a person’s thoughts and actions to bring them to a place where they can change the course of their marriage. And, often, it’s a day of prayer that shifts a person’s thinking and starts them on the path toward reconciliation.  Alberto’s story, in my book, Fighting for Your Marriage while Separated, testifies to this very truth. It was when he was quiet before God that God began turning his life around. As a result, he and his wife reconciled, and now, several years later, their marriage is thriving. To this day Alberto serves God with a humble heart and has been involved in helping other men on their path to reconciliation in their marriages.

So today, stop! Look to the Lord. Let Him quiet your spirit so you can begin to hear His voice.

We wait in hope for the Lord; he is our help and our shield. Psalm 33:20

Why, my soul, are you downcast? Why so disturbed within me? Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Savior and my God. Psalm 42:5

If you’re experiencing a marriage in crisis, let my first book, Broken Heart on Hold, be that needed friend, walking beside you to help you quiet your heart while you look to God to heal your emotions and give you strength for the journey.

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Planning Ahead in 2021

Photo by Jude Beck

As we happily throw away last year’s calendar and move on from 2020, it’s time to go to God and seek direction for 2021.

The grand plans we had for 2020 may have gone awry when the pandemic hit, but we can use it as a good reminder of what scripture tells us in Proverbs 19:21, “Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but it is the Lord’s purpose that prevails.” We don’t know what the future holds, but as Christians we know Who holds the future.  We can make our resolutions. We can make our plans. But only as we give them to God will God’s best for us succeed.

So let’s include God as we set our goals for 2021.

The Goal Setting Guide below provides an opportunity to set goals in seven areas of your life. As you think over the past year and look ahead to the future, I encourage you to read the accompanying scriptures and pray over how God may be leading you in 2021.

GOAL SETTING FOR THE NEW YEAR

I. PERSONAL GOALS

Practical Steps For Achieving:

 

“And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.” Phil. 4:19

II. MARRIAGE AND RELATIONSHIP GOALS:

Practical Steps For Achieving:

 

“Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” Eph. 5:21

III. FAMILY GOALS:

Practical Steps for Achieving:

 

“Love is patient; love is kind. It does not envy; it does not boast; it is not proud. It is not rude; it is not self-seeking; it is not easily angered; it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.” I Cor. 13:4-7

IV. CAREER GOALS:

Practical Steps for Achieving:

 

“Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and your plans will succeed.” Prov. 16:3

V. ATTITUDE GOALS:

Practical Steps for Achieving:

 

“…be made new in the attitude of your minds, and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.” Eph. 4:23-24

VI. GOALS OF SERVICE TO GOD AND OTHERS:

Practical Steps for Achieving:

 

“And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.” Heb. 13:16

VII. SPIRITUAL GOALS:

Practical Steps for Achieving:

 

“And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way, bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to His glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience and joyfully giving thanks to the Father…” Col. 1:10-11

 

If you are struggling to understand how to move ahead in 2021 because of problems in your marriage or family, I encourage you to check out my latest award-winning book, Fighting for Your Marriage while Separated.

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Prayers to Calm Your Anxious Heart – Interview with Author, Julie K. Gillies

When I asked Julie Gillies if she wanted to do an author interview on my blog, the title of her new book seemed tailor-made for 2020. Is there any time in history when more of us have had anxious hearts? All over the world, anxiety permeates our lives. The year 2020 has brought one anxious situation after another, and we are all reeling, not only with anxiety about today, but with questions about what will happen tomorrow.

Julie’s new book, Prayers to Calm Your Anxious Heart, helps readers focus on God instead of our anxieties as she gently leads us to know God better, know the Scripture, and know how to pray. Here is a book that might not only be a good one for you to read yourself, but to give to friends and family as gifts this Christmas. 

Linda: Tell us why you wrote Prayers to Calm Your Anxious Heart?

Julie: While on my knees one evening praying specifically for a family member who struggles with anxiety, I wished for a book on anxiety and prayer I could offer them; something Scripture-based and simple so it would be encouraging but not overwhelming to read. That single thought flashed into an idea that eventually became the devotional, Prayers to Calm Your Anxious Heart.

I had no idea it would release in the middle of arguably the most difficult year most of us have ever navigated. 2020 has spiked anxiety levels worldwide. Most of us have experienced fear, confusion, health concerns, and various degrees of isolation. Civil unrest, violence, bare grocery shelves, and even toilet paper shortages are realities few of us have navigated. And, of course, add to this the ongoing (or acute) relational, marriage, career, or personal issues we all cope with. Our hearts need peace now more than ever!

Linda: There are lots of devotional books available to readers, but tell us why your book, Prayers to Calm Your Anxious Heart, can especially help people during troubling times.

Julie: I’m a huge fan of learning by doing, so this book provides actual prayers for the reader to pray. Those Who struggle with anxiety struggle to focus, and so these prayers keep the reader focused through simple yet powerful prayers. The devotional portion is brief yet meaningful and focuses on Scripture (which is what we all need more of right now). We don’t need more opinions, information, or ideas. We need more of God’s word in our hearts! It stabilizes us, and fills us with truth and peace.

Linda: Since Jesus promises peace, why do you think so many of us are so anxious?

Julie: Here in America, we Americans are accustomed to and expect certain levels of peace, comfort and security. We want tranquil, undisturbed, nearly perfect lives. Most of us are unused to the challenging events 2020 has brought. Plus, we’re not robots—we have emotions and struggle to find our equilibrium in hard times. Jesus knows this and offers us precious comfort and reassurance:

I have told you these things, so that in Me you may have [perfect] peace and confidence. In the world you have tribulation and trials and distress and frustration; but be of good cheer [take courage; be confident, certain, undaunted]! For I have overcome the world. [I have deprived it of power to harm you and have conquered it for you.] (John 16:33) (AMPC)

Jesus is saying life on this earth will be hard—no matter where we live. Reality check: we aren’t in eternity yet! We can still be confident and even undaunted, not because the world lines up in Utopian perfection, but because Jesus offers us His supernatural and perfect peace in the storm.

Linda: How can we trust that God really hears our prayers when bad things keep happening?

Julie: It’s disheartening and distressing when we pray and we don’t see the results we long for. It’s tempting to believe God doesn’t hear or care. But He always listens and always hears us (see John 11:42).

God is often more interested in developing godly character in us and helping us to develop perseverance and tenacity than in reducing our discomforts. He wants us to ask and keep on asking (Matthew 7:7). We can’t give up. We must continue to pray for peace, for our family, for those in authority and for our nation, because that’s what God wants. Ultimately we trust that God is sovereign and the response is in His hands.

Whatever we’re enduring personally, the Lord knows and cares about every detail. He sees our hurts. He understands our pain. Nothing escapes His notice! I will be glad and rejoice in your unfailing love, for you have seen my troubles, and you care about the anguish of my soul. (Psalm 31:7)

Lastly, it’s comforting and reassuring to know that God is in the fire with us (see Daniel 3). Life in 2020 has felt more uncomfortable and hotter than most of us have experienced, but our true comfort and our saving grace is that we are not in it alone. Just like He was with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, Jesus Himself is in the fire with us.

Linda: That’s an encouraging perspective. How do we shift from simply knowing God offers peace to actually living a less anxious life?

Julie: Our focus determines our peace level. It’s important to be aware because Jesus said to watch and pray, but it’s a divine balance. We want to pray effectively by being aware of the issues of our time, but we don’t want to be obsessed with those issues. So we want to be informed but not obsessed.  

To have rest in our souls we must protect our primary focus: we must read God’s Word more than we read social media or watch the news. Not in a head-in-the sand way but in a God, You are sovereign and holy and greater way. Ultimately our goal should be to pray and keep our hearts riveted on Jesus, because what we think about steers our hearts.

You will keep in perfect peace all who trust in you, all whose thoughts are fixed on you! (Isaiah 26:3)

Linda: Where can readers find out more about you and your books?

Julie: All of my books, including Prayers to Calm Your Anxious Heart, are available wherever books are sold. To read the first chapter of each book for free (and for more FREE sources), I invite your readers to visit my website: www.JulieGillies.com

 

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Strength for the Weary

I was on my third run to the drug store in two hours. This time it was to get batteries for the blood pressure monitor I had just bought during run #2. My husband had recently endured two lengthy hospital stays in the last three weeks, and we were both exhausted. The tests, the doctor’s appointments, the new routines that had to be followed, staying stocked up on the right food and drink, remaining observant about health issues. I had to remain vigilant, but it was wearing me out.

As I reached the stoplight at the end of my street, I closed my eyes and sighed deeply. “Help me, God, I’m so tired.”

Into my mind immediately came Isaiah 40:31. “Those who wait on the Lord will renew their strength. They will mount up on wings like eagles. They will run and not grow weary. They will walk and not faint.”

As I finished reciting the verse, my spirit lifted. “Those who wait on the Lord” . . . . Yes, that’s what I needed right then. The Lord . . . renews my strength when I am weary. The words were so fitting. I felt like I was constantly running around, trying to help my husband, trying to remember everything I needed to do and everything he needed to do. But God was telling me when I wait on Him I “will run and not grow weary for He will renew my strength.” I repeated the verse over and over in my mind.  And as the scripture settled and took root in my spirit, I honestly didn’t feel as weary. I repeated the verse over and over in my mind as I took the last turn into the drug store. God was filling me up with His strength, and as He gave me His strength, He was renewing my strength.

Many of us feel weary right now. Maybe it’s not because of trying to help an ailing loved one, but because of continued lockdowns and the inability to go out and socialize with friends and family. You may be dealing with a shrinking budget because of shutdowns at work, or perhaps you’re trying to hold down a job while also trying to help your children do school from home. Maybe your marriage was already crumbling before the world was hit by Covid, and this situation is exacerbating the friction between you.

Or perhaps you’re actually one of those who are suffering from Covid yourself or have a friend or family member trying to recover from this frightful virus. Perhaps you live by yourself and the loneliness is descending like a cloud of darkness over your spirit.

Whatever the reason, too many of us are weary.

Right before Jesus was born, the world was weary too. The Bible says they lived in darkness.  Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist, looked forward to the coming of Christ as he spoke this prophecy at the birth of his son, who was to be the forerunner of the Messiah. “The rising sun will come to us from heaven to shine on those living in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the path of peace” (Luke 1:78-79).

In the darkness, God sent the Light of the World to shine into our lives to bring us hope and peace. God knew what was happening. God saw the hopelessness people were experiencing. God knew what was needed. And He sent us Jesus.

So yes we are weary. Yes, we’ve walked through a cloud of fear and uncertainly. Our normal lives have been disrupted. Even with a vaccine coming, we still don’t know how we will hold on.

But Christmas is coming. And it’s not just about the lights, the presents, and the music. It’s about the Christ child, who brought hope and salvation so we could turn our worlds around. No longer do we need to depend on the world to bring us joy. We only need to invite the Savior into our life and let Him settle there.  And each time we feel the weariness descend upon our hearts, we need to “wait upon the Lord.”  “He will renew [our] strength.” We will feel our hearts “mount up on wings like eagles. We will run and not be weary. We will walk and not faint.”

“Why do you say, O Jacob, and complain, O Israel, ‘’My way is hidden from the Lord, my cause is disregarded by my God’? Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom. He gives strength to the weary and increases the power of the weak. Even youths grow tired and weary, and young men stumble and fall. But those who wait on the Lord will renew their strength. They will mount up on wings like eagles. They will run and not grow weary. They will walk and not faint” (Isaiah 40: 27-31).

 

If you are weary from trying to reconcile a broken marriage, you can find hope and strength through my book, Broken Heart on Hold, Surviving Separation. In this book, as I walk with you through this difficult valley, I believe you will “renew your strength” for the journey ahead.

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When Your Marriage Boat is Sinking

Photo by Insung Yoon

Guest Post by Kathy Collard Miller

After only seven years of marriage, my husband Larry and I hated each other. We didn’t have hope for our future together. Plus, neither of us thought God really cared. Larry felt helpless and concentrated on working more hours and diverting himself with sports. I just thought God had given up on me. Our marriage boat was sinking.

But God did care and He had not given up.

In the Bible, God asks over 300 questions, not because He doesn’t know the answers, but because He wants to inquire into our minds and hearts. When any of us are struggling in our marriages, we might be surprised to discover how the questions God asks in the Bible can minister to us in unexpected ways.

For instance, in Luke 8:22-25, when the disciples are in a sinking boat and Jesus is asleep in spite of the waves flooding over the sides, even the seasoned fishermen of the disciples feel hopeless. And the man, Jesus, who had originally told them to get into the boat seems totally oblivious.

Finally, most likely after trying on their own to scoop water out of the boat, the terrified disciples yell above the howling wind, “Master, Master, we are perishing!” (vs 24). When this similar scene had occurred before, the disciples had cried out, “Teacher, do you not care that we are perishing?” (Mark 4:38).

Larry and I both had concluded within the sinking ship of our marriage that our relationship would perish and God didn’t really care. There was no hope and since He hadn’t given us an instant healing, maybe He was as hopeless as we were.

But Jesus does rescue the disciples and asks, “Where is your faith?” I find the word “where” fascinating. Other times, Jesus asks “what” or “why.” Only a few other times does Jesus use “where” in a question, usually referring to a physical place, not the condition of the heart.

This time he is addressing the condition of the disciples’ hearts—where they are traveling away from him in their commitment.

He seems to be asking,

  • Where is your faith headed?
  • Where are your desires leading you?
  • Where will you end up?

The reaction of the disciples—and those of us in the midst of marriage challenges—reveals our spiritual eyes and also our physical eyes which focus on our circumstances. We quickly travel in our hearts to imagine the worst.

“Yes, Jesus said He created marriage but I guess He doesn’t care about ours.”

“Yes, Jesus said He can give us the courage to persevere, but even making right choices doesn’t seem to make any difference.”

“Yes, Jesus said nothing is too difficult for Him, but then why do I keep getting so angry and defensive?”

We all have “yes … but …” statements following where disbelief and distrust lead. Instead of clinging to the confidence Jesus demonstrates through the promises of Scripture, we follow the rabbit trail off into the forest where dangers lurk. The apparent truths of circumstances seem more accurate and real.

It’s not easy, but it is possible to keep our eyes focused on Jesus. Otherwise, Jesus would not have asked the disciples, “Where is your faith?” He would have just walked out onto the sea and abandoned them.

We know because Jesus didn’t abandon Larry and me. He calmed the storm threatening our marriage. No, it wasn’t an instant deliverance like when Jesus quieted the storm. Instead, the healing of our relationship was filled with three steps forward and two steps back. Little by little, we each learned selflessness, how to choose love regardless of our feelings, and greater trust in God to keep trying.

Now after celebrating our 50th wedding anniversary, we can confirm that calling upon Jesus is worth it. Our love and commitment is as strong as it can be and we minister together. He proves Himself faithful not only by showing His attentiveness, but by empowering us to learn how to use our spiritual paddles effectively and know Jesus is with us even if the storm continues.

“Where is your faith?” continues to draw our attention back to our great God who knows exactly how to help us. Sometimes by calming the storm and other times by giving us more effective paddles.

Do you have a sinking marriage?

He healed us and He desires to heal you.

Kathy Collard Miller and Larry Miller are international and national speakers and co-writers. They married in 1970, are parents, grandparents, and lay counselors. Larry is a retired police lieutenant from Huntington Beach, California. Their most recent book is God’s Intriguing Questions: 60 New Testament Devotions Revealing Jesus’s Nature.  Visit them at www.KathyCollardMiller.com

 

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Shining Like Silver and Gold

Inspiring Others in The Midst of Covid

The pressure of crisis –whatever the cause—can be overwhelming. Whether it’s from Covid, a marriage crisis, or the devastation of our finances, crisis can push us beyond the limits of our understanding until we have nothing else within us to keep on going.

At this point, when we are devoid of strength in ourselves, instead of sinking lower and lower into hopelessness, depression, or substance abuse, God calls us to look up and sink into the arms of Jesus.

In the arms of Jesus, not only does He comfort us with his peace, but He gathers together the substance of our life and molds it into something new and beautiful. The pressure of crisis, when God becomes our refuge and we allow Him to show us the way, refines us into silver and gold so we can shine for His glory. We become the beautiful instruments of His grace, mercy, and love to those around us.

1 Peter 1:6b -7 reminds us of this. “Though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed (1 Peter 1:7 NIV).

An Inspiring Story from the Covid Ward

Recently, I’ve witnessed a person who is shining like gold as she looks past the crisis enveloping her life and fixes her eyes on Jesus, not just to save herself, not just to find peace and comfort, but to use the circumstances of her crisis to shine like gold.

I’m talking about my friend and author, Elaine W. Miller, who right now lies in a Covid ward in the hospital, fighting to breathe. She is fighting for her life, but also blessing everyone who comes in contact with her words.

Her own words on Facebook tell the story.

“Covid pneumonia,” She said in her first post. “We’re off on another adventure. Me and Jesus! He holds me tight and won’t let go.”

A couple of days later:

“Nurse took the stethoscope and said, “Let’s hear what’s happening in your heart.” I said, “Jesus is happening in my heart! Hallelujah!” Started Remdesivir today! Yay! Happy Sunday!”

A message to her praying Facebook friends:

“Blessed in isolation. I can sing out and cry out to God late at night and not disturb anyone. I think of Jesus at Gethsemane crying out, Why have you forsaken me God? I feel loved by God, not forsaken. Jesus was sad that his best friends were asleep and not praying. I don’t feel like Jesus. You have covered me with a mighty army of prayers by day and by night. I am so thankful for you. I am having good sleep, good time with God, and I have no pain. #Thankfulforyou #CovidBootcamp Dr. is optimistic that I will survive this.”

A nurse’s perspective as Elaine began to get her breath:

“’When you came to ICU you couldn’t say 2 words without losing your breath. Today I walk in your room and you are singing!’ – my nurse.”

The beauty of gold:

“Covid has restored my hope in America. My doctors are putting out the big guns. I am on an infusion marathon to fight Covid. Last night that bag and more dripped into my veins. I stared at it all night and couldn’t stop crying. You see that bag is some amazing person’s convalescent plasma. They survived Covid and gave their plasma, time, money, love so some old woman they don’t even know could have a few more years to live. That’s my America! Where people die to their selfishness so others can live. Where people think of others more than they think of themselves. That’s my America! I am so sick of the protests, looting, destroying, anger, hate, selfishness, lies. Someone gave their blood so I might have a chance to live. Just like Jesus. I am so grateful for these dear health workers here who risk their lives so people can live. I am blessed and glad God gave me hope for America in a Covid hospital.”

Finally, in the midst of her crisis with Covid, my friend Elaine looks beyond her circumstances to focus on others:

“Day 17 isolation. Why am I here? Ha! For the same reason you are there. To glorify God. To bring light and hope to a dark and hopeless world. When cancer came to me five years ago, I determined to see my cancer as an opportunity to bless people and not as an obstacle or reason for complaint. So, as I rest on my Covid bed, I am overwhelmed with love and prayers and compassion for Caregivers. My eyes are opened to their true suffering. Folks, you have no idea the exhaustion, the tears, the sacrifice, the dance with death they do daily. They risk their lives so I can live. So, when some call Covid a hoax or complain about wearing a face mask, I know a lot of people who are crushed by your words. But they plow on. Keep quiet. Serve. I determined to pray a blessing on every person who enters my Covid room. What a blessing to me. Not one person has stopped me. I pray as some leave. Everyone has stopped to hear my prayers. They all say thank you. Many in tears. Some come back to me, hold me, touch me (not recommended in Covidland) and pray with me. We cry and we trust Jesus. “But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you My power and that My Name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Exodus 9:16.”

An Inspiration for You and Me

So, yes, when the pressure of crisis threatens to pull us down, we can choose the abundant life Jesus wants to give us or the barren wasteland without Him. When we submit ourselves to Jesus, He can use us to shine forth like the preciousness of silver and gold.

Please join me in praying for Elaine’s healing and for all of us to be able to shine for Jesus.

Check out Elaine’s books on Amazon. Elaine W. Miller is the author of three books:

We All Married Idiots: Three things You Will Never Change about Your Marriage and Ten Things You Can,  

Praise the Lord and Pass the Chemo: A Hopeful Response to a Hard Reality, and

Splashes of Serenity: Bathtime Reflections for Drained Moms

 

Elaine and me at a writer’s conference

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